Arya Samaj

Ayush

Indulgence is something takes you away from the Ultimate Goal : Moksha
eg: eating food to satisfy the senses, spending money on material possesions, watching movies, enjoying music, drinking alcohol, sex (within marriage) etc etc...

Sin is something that God punishes you for in the form : Naraka(Hell)/ Birth as an animal / Pain, misery and misfortune in life (current and future) etc etc....
eg : eating non-veg food, stealing, adultery, cheating, lying to make others suffer, murder, rape, etc etc.....

I wanna know what category does Fornication fall under?
If two completely consenting, unmarried adults of the opposite gender and under no influence of any intoxicant have sexual intercourse OR make out with each other, what would such an act be? A 'Sin' or an extreme form of 'Indulgence'?

What is the Arya Samaj's view on this subject?

Shyena · Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject:

In all traditions of dharma, there is no difference between 'sin' and 'indulgence' to a great extent. Indulgence mainly harms you, while 'sin' harms others as well. Both of them will incur punishment...

From what I can remember, premarital sex is discouraged in vaidika dharma..
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Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam meditate

Namaste

Ayush · Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject:

But a sin that harms others too is bound to incur more punishment, isn't it?

I know that pre-marital sex is discouraged. But is it forbiden?
There is a difference between something being discouraged and forbiden.

For eg : stealing is forbiden. It is a clear cut sin. Thats because it harms others.

Shishya · Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject:

Namaste Ayush,

You are very correct in your view that there is a difference between discouraging something and forbidding it outright. The Dharma Shastras have been written as guides to lead humanity towards the fulfilment of the Purusharthas. However, they are supplemental to the Vedas, and do not carry the same weight in their pronouncements.

Let us, for a moment, consider the notion of Sin. Many here may be familiar with the term as commonly used by Christians, as it is very wide-spead - even among Hindus. In this, Sin is understood as a transgression against the Will of God. If we examine this rationally, however, we see that such a notion cannot be correct.

God's Will - and I mean this in the absolute sense of the term - cannot be transgressed. Regardless what a man may do, he can never break one of God's commandments, for such a thing is an impossibility in and of itself. What God commands is univerally applicable and remains as it is for all time. Therefore, the notion of transgressing God's Will is not one based on logic.

What, then, is meant by 'Sin'? And more importantly, who are we sinning against?

God has given us freedom, this much is clear. He has also given us clear guidelines as to what will lead us towards the attainment of the satisfaction of the Purusharthas, i.e. the Final Ends or Highest Goals of Man's Existence. However, he has not made it so that we are forced to follow this path. It is His Will that we make the decision to either follow that path (Dharma) or to stray from it (Adharma) for ourselves. (And even if we choose not to choose for ourselves, this is our decision, possible only due to our freedom granted by the Will of God.)

The Law of Karma dictates that we will reap what we sow in like kind, i.e. if we do good, good will be done unto us. And the reverse is also true. God does not wish to punish us for straying from the path of Dharma. We receive only that which we have given, nothing more, nothing less.

The true goal, therefore, is to fulfill our highest purpose. It is up to us whether we make progress towards that end or whether we ignore it and spend our time following after other goals.

Therefore, it is ultimately ourselves that we sin against. Or more precisely, it is the possibility of our own salvation which we transgress.

Is harming others sinful? Yes, but not necessarily because of the actual harm which we cause to others. (They, too, have their own karma, after all.) Rather, the sin lies in the will to cause suffering in others and the unwillingness to prevent or alleviate suffering in those around us.

Now, one may ask: Are actions which unintentionally harm others also sinful? However, this question is based on the presupposition that there are such things as 'unintentional acts'. If we follow the Law of Karma to its logical conclusion, we should discover that no act is truly unintentional. True, it may not have been consciously intended, but somewhere along the line, our karma (i.e. the fruits of our past actions) and our sanskaars (earlier impressions) are at work in all things which we (actively or passively) experience - and the "unintentional" harming of others falls in this category especially. Therefore, every act of harming others - whether it be consciously willed at the time of it's occurrence or not - is ultimately a product of our willed decisions - either now or at some time in the past.

As a final note: I realize that some may view what I have said above as rather 'unorthodox' and that many may disagree with it. However, I do think that it is in tune with Vedic Wisdom as well as the teachings of Swamiji. Of course, as in all things, I may be proven wrong in this. However, it is my current view of the matter.
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Namaste,

Shishya
ॐ

ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads

Prabhat · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:19 am Post subject:

Namaste Shis,

Is harming others sinful? Yes, but not necessarily because of the actual harm which we cause to others. (They, too, have their own karma, after all.) Rather, the sin lies in the will to cause suffering in others and the unwillingness to prevent or alleviate suffering in those around us.

so this karma has something to do with the past life?
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Namaste,
Prabhat

Shishya · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:06 am Post subject:

Namaste Prabhat,

Yes. That which happens to us is related to karma from either this life or a previous one. This is also the case when we are otherwise 'innocent victims'. Nothing happens without some higher purpose behind it. It is our task to learn from it and to try and change things for the better.
_________________
Namaste,

Shishya
ॐ

ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads

Prabhat · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:18 am Post subject:

Namaste Shis.
i think we had a topic about this. and i started it. something with punisment or so.
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Namaste,
Prabhat

Shishya · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:28 am Post subject:

Namaste Prabhat,

Indeed. And this is from one of the posts in that thread, which I think is relevant here as well:

Prabhat · Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:59 am Post subject:

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Namaste,
Prabhat