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Shyena
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 Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste Prabhat,
Viable you can say means 'sensible'
The reason yogi's dont perform these miracles is that they consider these a hindrance in the path to moksha. If you fall into desire of manifesting these powers, you will never progress towards god, which is the highest position one can attain.
Why did they not drink? I'm not too sure.... I was too little when the real mass miracle occured, the one that happened this time is not too much of my concern.
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Prabhat
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| Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste PD,
but sorry yaar, still i think its a joke. the yogis had that much power that all over the world al the murties drink milk, but still knowing this will maby nit give them moksha.
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Mitra
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Namaste Prabhat Ji,
I found a video which shows the idols 'drinking' milk. As you can see milk is not being sucked up. It slowly seems to cling to the idol once contact is made and then drips down. This is not clearly seen with marble idols but at the bottom of all idols you can see milk dripping down and flowing to collect at the base of the idol.
The Capillary action theory was given by scientists after conducting an experiment in which they added a dye to the milk. It was then seen that the coloured milk was going from the spoons to the idols surface and then spreading over the surface of the idols. As the idols are usually wet after washing them it is even more easier for this to happen.
At the end of the day there were litres of milk flowing down the drains. The news videos showed the milk wasted behind the temples.That milk should have fed children and not been wasted like that.
http://milkmiracle.com/html/miracle.html#Video
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle
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Shyena
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but sorry yaar, still i think its a joke. the yogis had that much power that all over the world al the murties drink milk, but still knowing this will maby nit give them moksha. |
To think that mere manifesting prakrti means that one uses mind, the other uses body. What i'm saying is part of yoga-sutras, not my theory...
As for the amount of milk wasted - the problem is that the number of litres wasted, hundreds at a maximum, when compared with the number of litres fed, over millions, simply doesn't make sense. naturally, this part of the thing you wont find in newspapers. As for 'scientists feeding dyed milk' - neither have I seen this in newspapers, nor have I seen the much spreading story of an experiment where a scientist is supposed to have kept a dying person in a glass box. The moment he expired, the glass box is supposed to have burst. Its fallible to assume that all the milk was drunk by those statues at once in the first place - but these theories still fail to explain how a marble statue performs the same, or why one doesn't see this trail of milk for a bronze statue?
And please, dont say things like milk should've been fed to children - all of us know such things never happen. What about the ghee we waste in havan? Both of them have a productive use - one physical, the other inspirational.
[i[but still knowing this will maby nit give them moksha.[/i]
To further elaborate - if one had the option between a simple peaceful life, and a life of fame and riches, 5/10 will say riches. The other half say both...
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Prabhat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mitra wrote: | Namaste Prabhat Ji,
I found a video which shows the idols 'drinking' milk. As you can see milk is not being sucked up. It slowly seems to cling to the idol once contact is made and then drips down. This is not clearly seen with marble idols but at the bottom of all idols you can see milk dripping down and flowing to collect at the base of the idol.
The Capillary action theory was given by scientists after conducting an experiment in which they added a dye to the milk. It was then seen that the coloured milk was going from the spoons to the idols surface and then spreading over the surface of the idols. As the idols are usually wet after washing them it is even more easier for this to happen.
At the end of the day there were litres of milk flowing down the drains. The news videos showed the milk wasted behind the temples.That milk should have fed children and not been wasted like that.
http://milkmiracle.com/html/miracle.html#Video
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle |
Namaste Mitra,
thanks for the clips.
so do you believe it?
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Mitra
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste Prabhat Bhai,
No I don't trust it. I wanted to refresh everyone's memories. If you want you can try the experiments even now. Just take a stone and try to feed it dyed milk you can see the milk 1st going up a bit then spreading down on the surface of the idol.
Namaste PD
If you notice the video shows brass idols too . The milk just dripped down and collected in the dhoti around the idol.
The scientists who did the experiments with dye in the milk were from the department of science and technology, Govt of India.
The ghee offered in Yagna is not wasted . It is broken down into into its components by the fire and spread in the atmosphere . Hope you went through the articles posted by Shishya on the effects of agnihotra and the info in Satyarth Prakash.
http://aryasamaj.forumwise.com/aryasamaj-thread475.html&highlight=agnihotra
Thus ghee which would have increased the caloric intake of one person if ingested is instead used for purifying air and benefitting many. The inspiration from the yagna and the chanting of mantras are additional but the physical effects are also significant.
I know Yog Darshan mentions that siddhis can be attained in the course of Sadhana. But I do not believe that the idols drinking milk was a manifestation of such powers. It was a hoax . What is a miracle is that the news spread within a day all over india, and then the world. In some places it went on till 8 days. What is amazing for me is the way people can get caught up in the frenzy. It was a massive rush.
As Shishya said the entire creation is evidence of a miracle. For me the manifestation of life from a seed to a seedling and a single cell to whole, sentient individual is a miracle beyond belief. Lets seek the unknown but more rationally.
Edit: Why PD I see now that you even posted under the agnihotra thread... Why do you say now that ghee is wasted in Yagna?
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Prabhat
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste choti didi,
oke, i thought you believed in the murtie stuff
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Shyena
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste mitra,
I'm afraid you haven't read my post properly:
| Quote: | | If you notice the video shows brass idols too . The milk just dripped down and collected in the dhoti around the idol. |
Not really, I didn't note this in every case. And my question remains unanswered.
| Quote: | | The scientists who did the experiments with dye in the milk were from the department of science and technology, Govt of India. |
Some other government scientists also said that the process is inexplicable. Let's not forget what this government teaches in history textbooks - we got rebirth from buddhism... In simple words, to trust the government is a failure. Same goes with cool drinks - india overrates it as toxic, the more developed countries declare it safe (BTW i dont drink coke...)
Again, how many do you think must've fed milk to it? A dozen? You yourself mentioned:
| Quote: | | What is amazing for me is the way people can get caught up in the frenzy. It was a massive rush. |
How many must've fed it then?
| Quote: | The ghee offered in Yagna is not wasted . It is broken down into into its components by the fire and spread in the atmosphere . Hope you went through the articles posted by Shishya on the effects of agnihotra and the info in Satyarth Prakash.
Thus ghee which would have increased the caloric intake of one person if ingested is instead used for purifying air and benefitting many. The inspiration from the yagna and the chanting of mantras are additional but the physical effects are also significant.
Edit: Why PD I see now that you even posted under the agnihotra thread... Why do you say now that ghee is wasted in Yagna? |
I guess you didn't read my post properly:
| Quote: | | And please, dont say things like milk should've been fed to children - all of us know such things never happen. What about the ghee we waste in havan? Both of them have a productive use - one physical, the other inspirational. |
Other than belief or personal factors I see no reason why it can't be true. To think of vedas as eternal is a liable hoax as well for an atheist. So what makes us different from them? I was perplexed to see atheists argue in a no different fashion than religious fanatics... The only reason they rejected god is based on moral factors. Remember that miracles are considered LIABILITIES because a person who falls into manifesting them is deterring from path of moksha.
| Quote: | | As Shishya said the entire creation is evidence of a miracle. For me the manifestation of life from a seed to a seedling and a single cell to whole, sentient individual is a miracle beyond belief. Lets seek the unknown but more rationally. |
I'm sorry but such things are given a particular name -Argument from Design, a logical fallacy. A theist might admire god for the universal design but not an agnostic nor an atheist. That is but a failed argument for me.
| Quote: | | I consider it foolishness to say that idols drinking milk or levitating stones are god demonstrating divinity. I instead see them as adding proof of existence of the soul - which, to be honest, is enough for me. |
This should be enough for you to understand to what extent I believe in miracles. No miracle changed my faith - it was logic and contemplation...
As you can see, there is more to the whole thing than what meets the eye. Presides, how can it change the faith of the devotee when you say that lord didn't drink coloured milk? To a sceptic, its convincing. To a bhakta, it is reinforcing.
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Mitra
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Not really, I didn't note this in every case. And my question remains unanswered. |
PD, The evidence is in front of your eyes. The brass idol is not accepting the milk. It is running down. Or is it that some Ganesha idols changed their mind.
| Quote: | | In simple words, to trust the government is a failure. |
I gave the reference of Govt of India just to tell that the experiment and its results was well documented and authentic. It was not just some rumour in as you had implied in your previous post. | Quote: | | As for 'scientists feeding dyed milk' - neither have I seen this in newspapers, nor have I seen the much spreading story of an experiment where a scientist is supposed to have kept a dying person in a glass box. |
| Quote: | | What about the ghee we waste in havan?Both of them have a productive use - one physical, the other inspirational. |
I just responded to this statement made by you. I wanted to make it clear that Ghee offered in Yajnas gives tangible, productive benefits and is not just of inspirational use as you mentioned.
| Quote: | | Other than belief or personal factors I see no reason why it can't be true. |
The main factors I dont trust that it was paranormal - are objective factors not subjective personal beliefs.Even a marble paperweight looked like it was sipping milk when it came in contact with it. I tried to refresh my memory just before starting posting on this topic and ended up with the same results this week. Once a stone or another spoon touches the surface of the milk in the spoon, it looks like the fluid rises upa bit and spreads on the surface of the object . Given that Ganesha's snout is tubular it is easy to understand how milk can track up a bit over the wet idol.
And logically, if the yogic powers made the idol ingest something, they should also follow the natural course and make the idol gain weight or find some way of disposing the ingested material as it happens in the rest of the creation according to natural law.
The video clearly shows what happened. Not a single idol the believers themseves have documented is slurpiing up the liquid.
| Quote: | | I'm sorry but such things are given a particular name -Argument from Design, a logical fallacy. A theist might admire god for the universal design but not an agnostic nor an atheist. That is but a failed argument for me. |
Ok, I am guilty of the fallacy in my logic in admiring this creation.But are you not admiring the Soul for its powers which you believe make an idol drink milk?
| Quote: | | Miracles are needed at times when argument from design is not satisfactory. |
| Quote: | | No miracle changed my faith - it was logic and contemplation... |
Come Again....
This IS getting tedious PD...you will see what you want to see, but for me the "miracle" is sadly not authentic and not serving any purpose. But by ignoring the facts of science you are closing yourself to the aspect that people were made fools by God knows who and for what...and it was a colossal waste of milk in the land that considers food to be a form of God. Annam parabrahma Swarupam. It was wrong ethically and I wish the brains who cooked up this prank were brought to book . Why doesnt anyone investigate that? Who started it first and cried wolf?
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Shishya
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Shyena
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Joined: 27 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | PD, The evidence is in front of your eyes. The brass idol is not accepting the milk. It is running down. Or is it that some Ganesha idols changed their mind. |
The problem with what you're saying is that you're generalising one case with everything. Ever visited dalitstan.org? You'd understand what i mean, with their articles trying to frame the brahmins as what ambedkar potrayed them. Majority of the brahmins I've encountered are more egalitarian than others, let's not forget that the majority of social reforms issued first from brahmins. You've not explained the case I've mentioned where the trunk was dipped into the glass of milk.
| Quote: | | I just responded to this statement made by you. I wanted to make it clear that Ghee offered in Yajnas gives tangible, productive benefits and is not just of inspirational use as you mentioned. |
Err, you didn't get me. Havan - physical influence (essence, purification,etc...). Offering of milk - inspirational to the believer. Do you think they began to feed milk only after this incident?
| Quote: | | Other than belief or personal factors I see no reason why it can't be true. |
| Quote: | | The main factors I dont trust that it was paranormal |
God is described as paranormal as well. Earth being round was also paranormal - indian mathematicians and astronomers used to debate furiously over this topic, where the orthodox ones considered earth being round as paranormal. In the end, the truth of the incident is independent of human perception [call me a kantian... i've never his works though]
[quote]Even a marble paperweight looked like it was sipping milk when it came in contact with it.
I tried to refresh my memory just before starting posting on this topic and ended up with the same results this week.
| Quote: | | Once a stone or another spoon touches the surface of the milk in the spoon, it looks like the fluid rises upa bit and spreads on the surface of the object . Given that Ganesha's snout is tubular it is easy to understand how milk can track up a bit over the wet idol. |
Not really, the process - I've experimented myself - the results are pretty different. The way the fluid is withdrawn is not the same rate as the fluid being withdrawn in the case of capillary action over a small cavity.
| Quote: | | And logically, if the yogic powers made the idol ingest something, they should also follow the natural course and make the idol gain weight or find some way of disposing the ingested material as it happens in the rest of the creation according to natural law. |
Its called prakrti?
[quote]The video clearly shows what happened. Not a single idol the believers themseves have documented is slurpiing up the liquid.
| Quote: | | Ok, I am guilty of the fallacy in my logic in admiring this creation. |
No, but bringing up the topic of design is a logical fallacy.
| Quote: | | But are you not admiring the Soul for its powers which you believe make an idol drink milk? Come Again.... |
To further elaborate, i rejected this thing because it was a miracle. But when it is independent of it being some sort of miracle, my position turned agnostic regarding this issue. Admiring the soul for powers? Not really. Existence of soul is what i'm speaking about. I was never impressed by any of these miracles, miracle men or miraculous predictions. I accepted vedas not for its scientific background, but for its harmonious and consistent logic which strengthens the fact that it is inspired by god. What proof do you gain from argument from design? Atheistic version of samkhya also answers the case. I believed in a similar model at one time - homogenous united purusha animating the prakrti, but absence of god.
| Quote: | | This IS getting tedious PD...you will see what you want to see, but for me the "miracle" is sadly not authentic and not serving any purpose. But by ignoring the facts of science you are closing yourself to the aspect that people were made fools by God knows who and for what...and it was a colossal waste of milk in the land that considers food to be a form of God. Annam parabrahma Swarupam. It was wrong ethically and I wish the brains who cooked up this prank were brought to book . Why doesnt anyone investigate that? Who started it first and cried wolf? |
I can quote the same in your case. What I say is dismissing something based on just one percent of cases is absolute fallacy. Colossal waste of milk - but colossal strengthening of faith of hindus.
Who cried wolf? I read the story... A guy had a dream late night that ganesha said that he wanted to drink milk. The dream for him was too much so he immediately rushed, in the middle of the night, to a nearby ganesha temple and requested the poojari sleeping there to open the temple, for he wanted to feed milk to the ganesha's idol. The poojari himself was sceptical (a sidenote, whenever a poojari opens the temple in the morning they say a set of hymns which apologise to god for trying to confine him within the idol), then the milk rush began. Whether that was a 'miracle' they witnessed or the dawn of the mass hysteria, this wasn't some popish practice.
| Quote: | | P.S.: Perhaps PD would like to explain to us why appreciating the beauty of God's creation should be considered a logical fallacy. Confused |
Because there is something put up against it called 'argument from poor design' by atheists, most notably richard dawkins.
EDIT:
Now that I'm a bit cooled down (had an argument with a friend of mine..), let me explain what i'm trying to say:
The video - I've seen it before.... I didn't think the first case should be of concern - even a dogmatic would see the trail of milk, save for that lady I suppose... Only in two cases can it be considered trail of milk. But the question I asked, remains -- millions of devotees, none create a wet floor? Naturally, there are few things far beyond mere perception - take the ganesha idol being given milk in the case, you can't expect the person feeding the milk to see the drop of milk that fell after a long time - so trying to say "blindness of the devotees" is not really the case - but the way the media, or sceptics put the thing is as in the first shot of feeding the vishnu/krishna idol..
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Shishya
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste PD,
| You wrote: | | The problem with what you're saying is that you're generalising one case with everything. Ever visited dalitstan.org? You'd understand what i mean, with their articles trying to frame the brahmins as what ambedkar potrayed them. Majority of the brahmins I've encountered are more egalitarian than others, let's not forget that the majority of social reforms issued first from brahmins. You've not explained the case I've mentioned where the trunk was dipped into the glass of milk. |
PD, either you are playing a trick on Mitra Ji or you are commiting a logical error yourself. You first accuse her of over-generalization, and then in the same paragraph you yourself do the same to support your case. Let's play fair. 
I invite everyone who hasn't yet to watch the video carefully. You will see in every case a clear trail of milk flowing down the statues in question. With some, it flows directly down the chin (I think the first one is a statue of Rama), with some, it flows down the folds of their robes (the first little Ganesha, for example), with others, it spreads out of the surface in a thin sheet (the grey/black Linga), and with some, it simply runs down the front to collect in a pool at the bottom (view the Nadi Bull at 03:19. You can see the pool forming at the base of the white statue, and a woman devotee even runs her hand through it.)
I see no reason to entertain wild hypotheses regarding the cause of this 'phenomenon'. It's simply a case of people choosing to ignore the obvious - selective perception, if you will.
| You wrote: | | Colossal waste of milk - but colossal strengthening of faith of hindus. |
Strengthening of faith? Faith in what? Faith that God will, without warning and for no apparent reason, perform 'miracles' like some parlor-magician? A faith that is based upon such things is hardly worth strengthening, in my opinion.
| You wrote: | | ...bringing up the topic of design is a logical fallacy. |
There is nothing indicative of a logical fallacy in regards to the topic of design. Besides, I wasn't referring to the Teleological or "Argument from Design". What I said was that we need not look for 'miracles' to appreciate God's power.
However, since you brought it up, the "Argument from Poor Design" is only applicable in a Judeo-Christian worldview. As soon as you consider the notions of Karma and Reincarnation, the argument collapses.
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ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads |
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Shyena
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | PD, either you are playing a trick on Mitra Ji or you are commiting a logical error yourself. You first accuse her of over-generalization, and then in the same paragraph you yourself do the same to support your case. Let's play fair. |
What I wished to point out is:
| Quote: | | In the end, the truth of the incident is independent of human perception |
What I meant to imply there was the generalisation based on some of the cases will lead to fallacy. If the generalisation can indeed be resorted to, then it should also explain the case I've explained.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject:
Namaste PD,
You wrote:
The problem with what you're saying is that you're generalising one case with everything. Ever visited dalitstan.org? You'd understand what i mean, with their articles trying to frame the brahmins as what ambedkar potrayed them. Majority of the brahmins I've encountered are more egalitarian than others, let's not forget that the majority of social reforms issued first from brahmins. You've not explained the case I've mentioned where the trunk was dipped into the glass of milk.
PD, either you are playing a trick on Mitra Ji or you are commiting a logical error yourself. You first accuse her of over-generalization, and then in the same paragraph you yourself do the same to support your case. Let's play fair. Wink
| Quote: | | I invite everyone who hasn't yet to watch the video carefully. |
| Quote: | | It's simply a case of people choosing to ignore the obvious - selective perception, if you will. |
You've demonstrated my very point over here. The person assumes more stress than what can be expected, and then says it is the blind belief of the believer. Pool of milk? Not really, the whole place is white. The drops fell much away from where she's feeding the milk to the nandi statue.
| Quote: | | Strengthening of faith? Faith in what? Faith that God will, without warning and for no apparent reason, perform 'miracles' like some parlor-magician? A faith that is based upon such things is hardly worth strengthening, in my opinion. |
Strenghtening? No. Foundations? Yes. How many atheists have actually began to believe in god just because the nature is beautiful? On the other hand you see a man claiming he was an atheist and his not so critical perception led him to believing otherwise. This should clearly demonstrate the fact that miracles, unfortunately, play a role in belief.
Many try to 'rationalise' god through similiar things like universe as the best miracle. This might apply for a weak atheist, but the most unconvincing arguments for an atheistic agnostic (best example: former me).
>>However, since you brought it up, the "Argument from Poor Design" is only applicable in a Judeo-Christian worldview. As soon as you consider the notions of Karma and Reincarnation, the argument collapses.<<
Not really. Analogous and homologous organs need better reasoning than offered, and some of the fallacies in human design. Nor do I understand how god 'cannot' operate soul, yet can design and make them animate the bodies. The reasoning here, I find through samkhya that the soul animates and evolves on its own.
Then again, there's nothing to oppose the view that is a mere lucky permutation. There can be other galaxies which may not witness what we do. If one says 'but then why do only we see perfect solar eclipses', etc... - it is merely permutation across the universe. Other solar systems may have something less remarkable, what reasoning can be given then? How can a just god design it less beautiful? And if found totally same as ours, again one can say that they might be the ideal conditions for life. The argument works both directions..
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Shyena
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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To clear my point of view, the incident ends in an open question. Generalisation is fallible.
Mitra, the points you put up against me of 'selective perception' - can be said as the same case with theists. Why are kids born with defects? It is either karma, or result of external factors. Which is more viable? The latter is the given reason, which is not always the case.
Take my example:
ESP is one thing few believe in, me - almost never. But ever I've seen my social studies paper I was going to have for board exams. It turned out to be the first time I got good marks in social studies (used to get 50's, got 82 - higher than math). Can I ignore this? Not really, these thoughts that force into my mind occur too often (I dreamed myself write the poem exactly as in real life - in a deja vu manner. When I noticed it happen in real life, it instead inspired me to write my first written poem)
No matter what form of critical analysis I put up against these visions, it failed. I used to therefore try to rationalise it by saying that there is an advanced telekinetic network of mind. If true - this explains rebirth. So how exactly does this network exist? The 90% of our unused mind keeps track of expressions and memories of other people, who bear impressions of people of his vicinity and so on every person in this world, are ultimately related.
So what's the use of this unused network? When did it come to be? Do animals have this network? Can we cognise with it? if so, why are they less intelligible?...
In other words, just to provide explanation to one flaw, I had to resort to many other loopholes. Or, I could've stayed an atheist by ignoring the many of these ESP's I had.... But that would mean I'm resorting to untruth.
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Shishya
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste PD,
| You wrote: | | What I meant to imply there was the generalisation based on some of the cases will lead to fallacy. If the generalisation can indeed be resorted to, then it should also explain the case I've explained. |
Point noted. However, are you not asking us to make the same kind of generalization by taking the singular case you mention as proof that there was something else other than human ignorance at work here? The many cases presented in the film allow us to draw a general conclusion: The milk was simply flowing down the statues. If there is one case where this seems not to apply, then I would say that the case in question needs to be examined in greater detail. It would not lead me to say that on the basis of this one hitherto unexplained case we should overthrow the general conclusion which has been formed based on the observation of dozens of others.
| You wrote: | | You've demonstrated my very point over here. |
Was that your point? Well, then, I'm glad to see we agree. 
| You wrote: | | Pool of milk? Not really, the whole place is white. The drops fell much away from where she's feeding the milk to the nandi statue. |
Yes, really. Watch the video again. From 03:15 to 03:22. You will see a pool of milk in the left-hand corner of the basin. It's large enough to go from the depressed edge of the resevoir to well past the base of the statue. And when the woman runs her hand through it, you can see the reflection of the light in the waves which result. If it's big enough to have waves, it's at least a puddle, if not a pool.
| You wrote: | | This should clearly demonstrate the fact that miracles, unfortunately, play a role in belief. |
Oh, I'm not arguing that many people base their faith on such things. But I'm more concerned with the quality of that faith. Faith in miracles of this sort are the product of a superstitious mind. And superstitious minds are easy to control and pervert.
Personally, if I had to choose between an agnostic and a pauranic, I would be highly inclined to choose the agnostic. For he, at least, has freed himself of many false notions concerning God in a search for Truth. That is half the journey towards nobility.
The "Argument from Poor Design" is fomulated as follows:
- An omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator God would create organisms that have optimal design.
- Organisms have features that are suboptimal.
- Therefore, God either did not create these organisms or is not omnipotent, omniscient or omnibenevolent.
The problem here is the notion of 'optimal design'. What should that mean? Well, if you're a hedonist, then I suppose 'optimal design' should mean 'that which allows maximum and/or unlimited pleasure at all times'. 
If one is aware of karma and reincarnation, one should realise that 'optimal design' does in fact exist in each and every case - for 'optimal' in this case should means 'that which allows the individual to attain the purusharthas'. And this is the case. This, however, is not to be had in one life - as it is in the Judeo-Christian view. The soul has a nearly countless number of incarnations in which it can attain its goal. Therefore, the premise "Organisms have features that are suboptimal" is unfounded. The goal of existence resides beyond the physically perceptible, therefore materialistic science is incapable of determining whether the features under discussion are 'suboptimal' in light of that ultimate purpose.
| You wrote: | No matter what form of critical analysis I put up against these visions, it failed. I used to therefore try to rationalise it by saying that there is an advanced telekinetic network of mind. If true - this explains rebirth. So how exactly does this network exist? The 90% of our unused mind keeps track of expressions and memories of other people, who bear impressions of people of his vicinity and so on every person in this world, are ultimately related.
So what's the use of this unused network? When did it come to be? Do animals have this network? Can we cognise with it? if so, why are they less intelligible?...
In other words, just to provide explanation to one flaw, I had to resort to many other loopholes. Or, I could've stayed an atheist by ignoring the many of these ESP's I had.... But that would mean I'm resorting to untruth. |
This is very close to the traditional notion of Manas. You've read Aurobindo and his comments on Mind, haven't you? Our individual mind is simply a fractionary expression of Manas. We are not the ones creating ideas - the ideas are already there in Manas, and have been since the beginning. We just focus so as to be able to receive those ideas, which can then be submitted to a process of re-combination. The creative genius is the one who can reflect that largest portion of Manas through his Ahamkara or Ego-Consciousness and put them to the best use.
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Namaste,
Shishya
ॐ
ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads |
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Shyena
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Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 964
Location: Hyderabad, AP
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Was that your point? Well, then, I'm glad to see we agree. |
I was saying that
| Quote: | | Yes, really. Watch the video again. From 03:15 to 03:22. You will see a pool of milk in the left-hand corner of the basin. It's large enough to go from the depressed edge of the resevoir to well past the base of the statue. And when the woman runs her hand through it, you can see the reflection of the light in the waves which result. If it's big enough to have waves, it's at least a puddle, if not a pool. |
I'm referring to the same scenes. From what I can tell, the drops falling are what's creating the ripples. Note that this is not an incident dating to a few hours, its millions of devotees stocking at the same place over a long period of time. The temple was no doubt open for a long time if not 24x7... Secondly, you can tell by the depth of its feet in the milk that its not as much as I feel you allude it to be.
| Quote: | | Oh, I'm not arguing that many people base their faith on such things. But I'm more concerned with the quality of that faith. Faith in miracles of this sort are the product of a superstitious mind. And superstitious minds are easy to control and pervert. |
I'm not bothered about the superstitious mind part - I'm bothered about the inapplication of logic.
| Quote: | | Personally, if I had to choose between an agnostic and a pauranic, I would be highly inclined to choose the agnostic. For he, at least, has freed himself of many false notions concerning God in a search for Truth. That is half the journey towards nobility. |
Freed? Never! To become a total agnostic is the worst experience one can have. Its like an eternal ennui of hopelessness, kind of like what the author experiences in Zen and the Art of Motorcycling.
| Quote: | | The "Argument from Poor Design" is fomulated as follows: |
The reasons I decline to support the model is not because of argument from poor design, but more of the reasons I've mentioned. Currently I cant remember the reasons I put up against reincarnation 
| Quote: | | The problem here is the notion of 'optimal design'. What should that mean? Well, if you're a hedonist, then I suppose 'optimal design' should mean 'that which allows maximum and/or unlimited pleasure at all times'. |
Please dont use that word  Blame my over-perverted style of thinking... Actually I see no reason for god to design the human body or universe in the first place..
| Quote: | | If one is aware of karma and reincarnation, one should realise that 'optimal design' does in fact exist in each and every case - for 'optimal' in this case should means 'that which allows the individual to attain the purusharthas'. And this is the case. This, however, is not to be had in one life - as it is in the Judeo-Christian view. The soul has a nearly countless number of incarnations in which it can attain its goal. Therefore, the premise "Organisms have features that are suboptimal" is unfounded. The goal of existence resides beyond the physically perceptible, therefore materialistic science is incapable of determining whether the features under discussion are 'suboptimal' in light of that ultimate purpose. |
Not really. By inferring the environment around us we can definitely say man is the creature of highest intellect. The creature however still induces mental as well as physical inabilities or problems. Currently my mind is not working well (its 2 AM here, and lack of sleep is troublesome).
| Quote: | | This is very close to the traditional notion of Manas. You've read Aurobindo and his comments on Mind, haven't you? Our individual mind is simply a fractionary expression of Manas. We are not the ones creating ideas - the ideas are already there in Manas, and have been since the beginning. We just focus so as to be able to receive those ideas, which can then be submitted to a process of re-combination. The creative genius is the one who can reflect that largest portion of Manas through his Ahamkara or Ego-Consciousness and put them to the best use. |
Those were my notions when I was in 9th.... I almost completely reject these notions now
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Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam 
Namaste 
