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Shyena
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 Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: Smartha Sampradaya |
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Smartha Sampradaya was popularised by adi sankaracharya; thus majorly advaitin. These people believe that the true form of That is formless and One. That can be worshipped in any form we like [bhakti] but the six main personalities stressed upon are: vishnu, siva, durga, ganesha, kartikeya, surya. However, one who wishes to attain moksha will have to meditate only upon the nirguna niraakaara brahman. They stress upon the concept of 'ishta-devata' i.e., worship of god in any form you like. These people believe in all the six types of hindu scriptures - shruti, shastras[and/or smrtis], darsanas, agamas, puraanas, itihasa; but majorly follow smritis [and avoid agamas] thus are called 'smarthas'.
The side concepts of this sampradaya is:
There are, in general, three kinds of divinities [other than aum]:
Pitris :- Our forefathers residing in chandra-loka. These are those souls who perform vedic ceremonies, etc.... but with desires to seek karmic benefit from it. They do not bear a gross body but is a materialistic heaven where one resides for the life-span of a pitri ie., 100 pitr years; where 1 day of pitri is equal to one month. Once this duration is over; they come back to earth. Our yajnas to That and remembering them on the day the person passed away makes them feel very happy. This is the basis of 'ancestor' worship.
Devaas :- These are positions attained by those who attain enough positive karma. Indra, Mitra, etc... are all positions who are subservient to That and there is no need to please them as demonstrated in ramayana. The different devatas of vedas are believed to be these positons.
Mahadevaas :- These are the worshipped personalities like vishnu, siva, lakshmi, durga, ganesha, etc.... who are majorly worshipped for devotion. There is a small difference between smarthas here - some say that they are positions; others say that they're eternal manifestations of That.
All smarthas however consider puraanas only to be allegories; agamas as unnecessary and stress upon following the codes of conduct of smrtis; and learning the shrutis [vedas, upanisads, brahmanas, aranyakas]. Unlike some sampradaya; they do not try to hold puraanas are much more authoritative or the like. Ramakrishna Math is the best example of a smarthic institution.
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Shishya
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste PD,
Thanks for the post! 
I see quite a bit of compatibility between Smarthism and Vaidik Dharm as taught by Swamiji. Knowing that Swamiji was born a Shaivite and that he studied the works of Adi Shankara in some depth in his early years makes me wonder what he thought of the Smarthas and whether their views had any influence on him. I can't imagine that he was completely unaffected by them.
I have found what seems to be one indirect reference to the Smarthas in the Satyarth Prakash:
| On pp. 365-366, Swamiji wrote: | Q: Why do you refute the Shaiva and other creeds, they find support in the following Vedic texts:
| Quote: | "We adore Rudra, the wrathful."
"Thu art Vishnu."
"Adoration to Vishnu."
"We pray to Ganesh, the Lord of Hosts."
"We pay homage to the goddess Bhagvati."
"We worship the Sun, the life of the universe - animate and inanimate." |
A: These texts lend no support to Shaiva and other creeds, for rudra means God, vital air, the soul and heat. The text relating to Rudra would mean that we should render obeisance to God Who is the Punisher of all evils doers, and should take proper food to keep up the animal heat in the body. Besides, wherever texts relating to Shiva are found in the Vedas, they mean that we should pay homage to the All-merciful God who showers blessings on all. A Shaiva is really one who worships Shiva - the All-merciful Being. A Vaishnava is one who worships Vishnu - the All-pervading God. A Ganpata is one who worships Ganpati - The Lord of Hosts i.e., (of the Universe). A Bhagvata is one who sits at the feet of the muses. A Saurka is one who is the devotee of the All-pervading God, the Soul of the Universe - animate and inanimate. Thus Rudra, Shiva, Vishnu, Ganapati, and Surya connote God, while Bhagvati connotes truthful speech. |
I suppose the main point of contention would be that while Smarthas teach that one may worship God in any form one likes, Swamiji would say that one may worship any of God's aspects. On a spiritual level, this distinction is so minor as to make no difference between the two positions. It only becomes an issue at the ritualistic level. Of course, Swamiji would have objected vehemently to the performance of puja using murthi. But I think the underlying idea is one that Swamiji would have agreed with.
A question: How important is the performance of Panchayatana Puja for modern Smarthas? Do you practice it? Or your family?
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Namaste,
Shishya
ॐ
ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads |
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Shyena
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Actually there still lies particular differences:
1)We accept worship through formed selves like vishnu, siva, etc.... From what i know; swamiji wants worship of the formless
2)We accept idol worship... a fundamental difference
3)Most of these are generally advaitins
You should understand why swamiji's views made no real difference to my extant views  Faith in the authentic form of vedas, yes..
Smarthas accept the trinity[no likeliness with the christian one] of brahma, vishnu, rudra which we say are different aspects of god; their shaktis sarasvati, lakshmi and parvati based on a hymn in matriyani which says that the three aspects are rajasic, sattvik and tamasic.
| Quote: | | On a spiritual level, this distinction is so minor as to make no difference between the two positions. |
A
Advaita opposed to traitavaada. Of course I can remember you say that you agree to the view that they're not opposed to each other
| Quote: | | It only becomes an issue at the ritualistic level. Of course, Swamiji would have objected vehemently to the performance of puja using murthi. But I think the underlying idea is one that Swamiji would have agreed with. |
No you see, the rituals concerning vedas - are preached as they are. The rituals involving murthi et all are based on agamas. Generally smarthans dont perform all the festivals; but these days they tend to perform the agamic ones over vedic ones; as the agamic ones are publicly celebrated especially ganesh chaturthi..
Let me show you how the two vary:
| Quote: | | rudra means God, vital air, the soul and heat. |
Rudra means the tamasic ie.., the punishing and destructive aspect of That.
| Quote: | | The text relating to Rudra would mean that we should render obeisance to God Who is the Punisher of all evils doers, and should take proper food to keep up the animal heat in the body. |
The text relating to rudra exemplifies his tamasic aspect which is no less than the other two of his prime aspects.
Besides, wherever texts relating to Shiva are found in the Vedas, they mean that we should pay homage to the All-merciful God who showers blessings on all.
| Quote: | | A Shaiva is really one who worships Shiva - the All-merciful Being. |
A shaiva is really one who worships the all-merciful in accordance to saiva agamas.
| Quote: | | A Vaishnava is one who worships Vishnu - the All-pervading God. |
A vaishnav is one who worships the all-pervasive in accordance to vaishnav agamas; which describes That as arjuna requests krishna to show narayana to him [helmeted, azure skinned, holding a lotus, disc, mace and conch-shell in his four hands].
And the fundamental difference is : we say that god appears in the form you like [to your eyes]. Swamiji says that god is always formless and pervasive.
What is the panchayatana puja by the way...?
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Shishya
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste PD,
Yes, I realize there is a major difference in regards to worship of God with form and the use of idols (which, I think you will agree, are intimately related issues). That's why I made the comment:
| Quote: | | I suppose the main point of contention would be that while Smarthas teach that one may worship God in any form one likes, Swamiji would say that one may worship any of God's aspects. |
| You wrote: | | Smarthas accept the trinity[no likeliness with the christian one] of brahma, vishnu, rudra which we say are different aspects of god; their shaktis sarasvati, lakshmi and parvati based on a hymn in matriyani which says that the three aspects are rajasic, sattvik and tamasic. |
Again, I see the same degree of difference here. Swamiji also taught the trinity, but these simply as the Creative, Sustaining and Dissolving aspects or functions of God - not as three individual souled beings.
| You wrote: | | Advaita is opposed to traitavaada. Of course I can remember you say that you agree to the view that they're not opposed to each other. |
Indeed, I see them as being complementary in a way. You could say that Advaita as an underlying theory is superb, but defeats itself in terms of existential relevance to the individual. Traitavaada is the highest any individual can know as an individual. That's as much as I'll say for now...
| You wrote: | | No you see, the rituals concerning vedas - are preached as they are. The rituals involving murthi et all are based on agamas. Generally smarthans dont perform all the festivals; but these days they tend to perform the agamic ones over vedic ones; as the agamic ones are publicly celebrated especially ganesh chaturthi.. |
That's why I asked about the Panchayatana Puja. Adi Shankara instituted the practice of the worship of the 5 Mahadevas on one vedi. This was to bridge the sectarian differences which he saw as being responsible for the weakness and virtual collapse of Hinduism when faced with the challenge of Buddhism. In the Panchayatana Puja, five idols are placed on the altar. The family deity (Ishta Devataa; selected from the five) is placed in the center of the altar, and the remaining four are placed around it, forming a circle or square. This way, members of the various sects within Hinduism at the time (or individuals with sectarian leanings) were unified under one form of puja while also being allowed to develop a personal relationship with one of the deities in particular - all the while reminded of the fact that all five are only manifestations of the One, Brahman.
I don't know if this is founded in an agama or not, but it is said to go back to Shankara himself. (And personally - as far as pujas go - I think it was a stroke of genius on the part of Shankara.)
| Quote: | | A Shaiva is really one who worships Shiva - the All-merciful Being. |
I think this is yet another case of poor translation. I think what Swamiji was saying is that "He who worships Shiva as the All-Merciful Being is a true Shaivite", etc. I'm sure that Swamiji understood the importance of the agamas for Pauranics. His statements, I think, were rather intended to redefine the terms Shaivite, Vaishnavite, etc. But, that's just my opinion.
| Quote: | | And the fundamental difference is : we say that god appears in the form you like [to your eyes]. Swamiji says that god is always formless and pervasive. |
No argument there...
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Namaste,
Shishya
ॐ
ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads |
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Shyena
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Joined: 27 Jun 2006
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Location: Hyderabad, AP
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, I realize there is a major difference in regards to worship of God with form and the use of idols (which, I think you will agree, are intimately related issues). That's why I made the comment: |
Yes of course ^^
| Quote: | | Again, I see the same degree of difference here. Swamiji also taught the trinity, but these simply as the Creative, Sustaining and Dissolving aspects or functions of God - not as three individual souled beings. |
ACK!! Really? o.O
Smarthas dont say they're individually souled or such either - they say that the same soul is behind these three personalities... They stress upon them being One aspect on the other hand. To be clear; they personify these aspects..[I reject the concept of trinity as having brahma - i feel brahma here means the feminine aspect of creation i.e, perceving that as a mother..]
| Quote: | | Indeed, I see them as being complementary in a way. You could say that Advaita as an underlying theory is superb, but defeats itself in terms of existential relevance to the individual. Traitavaada is the highest any individual can know as an individual. That's as much as I'll say for now.. |
Agreed ^^ Non-difference is baseless without reality of the difference; even if it be at a relative level - the difference is still real.
| Quote: | | That's why I asked about the Panchayatana Puja. Adi Shankara instituted the practice of the worship of the 5 Mahadevas on one vedi. This was to bridge the sectarian differences which he saw as being responsible for the weakness and virtual collapse of Hinduism when faced with the challenge of Buddhism. In the Panchayatana Puja, five idols are placed on the altar. The family deity (Ishta Devataa; selected from the five) is placed in the center of the altar, and the remaining four are placed around it, forming a circle or square. This way, members of the various sects within Hinduism at the time (or individuals with sectarian leanings) were unified under one form of puja while also being allowed to develop a personal relationship with one of the deities in particular - all the while reminded of the fact that all five are only manifestations of the One, Brahman. |
These days the sectarian differences are very little in india; the festival is not much practiced. There still are orthodox vaishnavs here and there who feel vishnu is supreme; otherwise most of the people in india these days are smarthics.
| Quote: | | I don't know if this is founded in an agama or not, but it is said to go back to Shankara himself. (And personally - as far as pujas go - I think it was a stroke of genius on the part of Shankara.) |
I dont know much about shankara - I didn't even know that my family belongs to smartha sampradaya until i loved the concept of smarthism and then asked my father actually  But judging from this panchayata yajna; I can infer what you mean
BTW; its 12 midnight... I better go sleep now
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Shishya
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Shyena
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, no... Never trust me. My family is highly libertarian and never stressed anything on me. I was addicted to encyclopaedias in childhood that as I grew up I became a deist, then agnostic, rationalist, atheist, almost collapsed into nihilistic trances like the one we read of in 'zen and the art of motorcycling' at the age of 15.... It was only after I returned to india [after 3 yrs of education in sharjah, UAE] did I again become a fervent hindu cum deist.
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Shishya
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste PD,
And you see deism (a lá Aristotle, I assume) being compatible with Advaita?
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Namaste,
Shishya
ॐ
ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads |
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Shyena
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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I dont know actually. I came up with the concept of advaita in my childhood in an embryonic stage; comparible with the philosophy of yadava bhaskara - ramanujacharya's guru [ramanuja popularised visishtadvaita and srivaishnava sampradaya]. Deism - depends on how it is defined. I see deism to mean 'perceiving god through logic and reasoning' - with logic you need nyaya and vaiseshika; and through some introspection I felt it should be the same That which has morphed into the ishvara; jeevas; prakrti...
I believe that god is like sound - which is without colour but doesn't mean its black. God similiarly cannot be defined by worldly terms and until we find the reality we should try to realise him through whatever instrument we can use.
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Shishya
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:28 am Post subject: |
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Namaste PD,
On a related note, do you know what role Yoga plays in the Smartha faith? Does it take a place of importance? And are certain types preferred over others? I would be interested to know, for I see Yoga as being the key to God-Realization. Rituals serve their purpose, but Yoga is the route one takes to become accutely and immediately aware of the all-pervasive nature of God.
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Namaste,
Shishya
ॐ
ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads |
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Shyena
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, internet was down for a couple of days - some brat cut the cable wire..
They say that more than rituals, or yoga or anything as such - the ONLY way to moksha is direct realisation. Attaining the right knowledge is stressed upon, and yoga's are seen as instruments that help attain this goal. Bhakti yields the right realisation; Jnana yields the right bhakti.
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Ayush
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: |
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PD I have a question for you.
You said Smarthas regard Puranas as allegories.
But what about the Bhagavad Gita?
One guy I met told me that although the Mahabharat and Ramayana are just "stories", everything that happens in these stories needs to be taken very seriously. He also said that the Bhagavad Gita is to be taken very literally. Everything Lord Krishna says to Arjuna is basically what God revealed to humans through Vyasa.
Is this view shared by most Smarthas?
Also are you sure Puranas are regarded as allegories? Some people take the Puranas too seriously. |
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Shyena
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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You said Smarthas regard Puranas as allegories.
| Quote: | | But what about the Bhagavad Gita? |
Geeta is a part of itihaasa. It is taken literally yes, but krishna is considered incarnation of god by some smarthas, an Evolute[jivanmukta] by others. Regardless of that, the geeta is held in high esteem. Smarthas tend to busy themselves with the triple canon as they call it - brahma sutras, geeta, upanishads. Frankly speaking, they're more of upanishadics than vaidics (although they perform the sixteen sanskaaras...).
| Quote: | | One guy I met told me that although the Mahabharat and Ramayana are just "stories", everything that happens in these stories needs to be taken very seriously. |
To be honest, there is nothing fixed amongst smarthas or any hindus. Some consider them stories, other spiritual allegories, other real historical events, etc...
| Quote: | | He also said that the Bhagavad Gita is to be taken very literally. Everything Lord Krishna says to Arjuna is basically what God revealed to humans through Vyasa. |
Yes you can say so.
| Quote: | | Is this view shared by most Smarthas? |
Except for the itihaasa are just stories, yes.
| Quote: | | Also are you sure Puranas are regarded as allegories? Some people take the Puranas too seriously. |
The original doctrines of the sampradaya say that all these are allegorical stories, the truth is that all rose from maaya....
All of smarthas however haven't show adherence to kevaladvaita for a few centuries. Although universal unitarians, they also follow dvaita, visishtadvaita, etc...
Personally, I'm a smarthic who accepts translations of arya samaj, but follow a fusion of traitavaada and monism(the variety i follow is not advaita of adi sankara, has more tendencies towards kashmir saivism).
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Ayush
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you  |
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Ayush
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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One more question PD.
You said Smarthas follow the Upanishads. Are you talking about the first 10 upanishads or all 108 upanishads? |
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Shyena
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Primarily the 12 upanisads, but the 108 upanisads are also included.
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