Arya Samaj

Prabhat · Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject:

They accept no scripture as perfectly authentic; and believe that we should take the good parts of all scriptures. The philosophy of brahmo samaj is majorly based on upanisads; especially ishopanishad.

like you say, take the good parts of all scriptures. so it is not original
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Namaste,
Prabhat

Shyena · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:14 am Post subject:

Such notions exist in all parts of society. But in the days of foundation of brahmo samaj; hindus used to be dogmatic and believed that only their puraanas are authentic and word from god. Muslims and Christians likewise. Universalism had an impact upon indians only after advent of Brahmo Samaj; whose principles were iconoclastic, monotheistic but had the dharmic touch of reincarnation and the like. Personally; I prefer many prayer halls of these set up everywhere in modern India - they'd definitely help unify many divided indians, if not just hindus.
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Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam meditate

Namaste

Shishya · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject:

Namaste PD,

Just a side note: Brahmo Samaj, as far as my sources are to be trusted, does not preach or promote belief in reincarnation. This was one of the major points of disagreement between Swamiji and Brahmo Samaj.
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Namaste,

Shishya
ॐ

ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads

Shyena · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject:

Ohh.... Hmm, the samaj is therefore only a samaj and not a religion then - that's good.... Wish more prayer halls were set up and it became a successful phenomenon - one of my friends was shocked when I told him "Philosophy! If you're tense then you should resort to bhakti - not philosophy!!". If there is one nearby, I'd definitely visit the place for some creedless worship...
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Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam meditate

Namaste

Shishya · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject:

Namaste PD,

And the connection with the Unitarian Universalist Church doesn't bother you at all? Personally if feel they have gone too far in trying to be as all-encompassing as possible - so much so that they lack 'soul', so to speak. But, that's my personal/emotional reaction to them. Rationally it seems like a pretty good organization.
_________________
Namaste,

Shishya
ॐ

ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads

Shyena · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject:

Namaste Shishya,
From what I can remember abrahamic associations being made because of keshub chandra sen, maybe they continued this or something.... I'm not talking about the present state of brahmo samaj however, just as I wont join the present arya samaj no matter what convincing arguments you give me - I support the authentic forms of anything; not any other. Maybe this means I support adi brahmo samaj; but I'm not too well aware of the concepts of brahmo samaj...
EDIT:
BTW, can you provide me links for better information about brahmo samaj?
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Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam meditate

Namaste

Shishya · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject:

Namaste PD,

Actually, the connections with the English Unitarians go back to the founder Rammohun Roy. He (co-)founded the Calcutta Unitarian Society prior to forming the Brahmo Samaj. In fact, the main reason for his founding the Brahmo Samaj was the restructuring of the Calcutta Unitarian Society into the British Indian Unitarian Association by the other founder, William Adam in 1827. Adam, incidentally, was originally a Christian Baptist missionary aiming to convert Indians to Christianity. The two worked together on producing a Bengali translation of the New Testament.

As for links, I don't know any particularly good ones. But if you google >>"brahmo samaj" + "universal unitarian"<<, you'll come up with some pretty interesting material. Wink

_________________
Namaste,

Shishya
ॐ

ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads

Shyena · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject:

Hmm, in that case Brahmo Samaj is good for me only in a Proof of Concept model. I want to immerse in bhajans that are not associated with any 'religion' because the concept always creates tension within me.

BTW; Was it william adam who raja ram mohun roy converted to hinduism? I remember someone being employed by church to convert RRMR, but ended up accepting upanishadic concepts himself.

[Why again did you recommend it in the first place....<_< Guess school hall is the only universal prayer ground Razz

]
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Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam meditate

Namaste

Shishya · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject:

Namaste PD,

Shyena · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject:

Sorry for the harsh attitude in the previous post - currently I'm sleepy but am trying to make harmonious sense about the zoroastrian-vedic linkages...

The reason for my ideology of universalism is like this : Vedas are the most perfect and the (almost) complete message from That. However, the nature of a human society is regressive due to the conflict in desires of individuals[assume there is no lack of resources]. Therefore, the stability of an authentic interpretation of vedas cannot be guaranteed - vedas are sublime and terse; the regressive process is faster - we have already witnessed/ing it...

From what i observed, the fundamental behaviour of a society is :
when there is unanimity, there is stagnation
where there is stagnation, there is oppression
where there is oppression, there will be revolt
and when we see a revolution - there is destruction thus loss; and may not have any gain either

If the society adheres to only one source of knowledge as authentic and/or eternal; they will slowly turn dogmatic and think of it as a sin to try go against it - whether it be bible, vedas, newton, darwin..

If we consider god in the equation, the society will soon witness an upswing - Consider it krishna's promise in geeta coming true, that whenever adharma prevails over dharma he shall incarnate [let me not get into details of this concept, i'm meddling once again with the concept of Enlightened Incarnate]. The different religions of this world are to create the dynamicity of thought amongst all the people, where the short-sighted will see the differences but the 'messiahs' shall see the inner harmony. Finally, at the end of kali yuga the fusion and authentic meaning of vedas will be absorbed by the society to reconstruct the golden age of krita yuga.

I differ with marx vehemently in his idea that this dynamicity and revolution should be ceased by wiping out economic differences, because that - as we have seen - shall lead to a much more terrible downswing. The dynamicity is inevitable, but the model of the society should be such that the fruit will overpower the flaws of this societal model incurred by the society.
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Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam meditate

Namaste

Shishya · Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject:

Namaste PD,

You've made some very astute observations. However, I would mention one factor which has gone unnoticed, both in your analysis as well in that of thinkers such as Hegel and Marx: Sublimation. Sublimation is the process which diverts the tendency to stagnation, instead leading to internal growth, thus allowing a society (or an individual, for that matter), externally observed, to remain in harmony with itself and 'stable' while never having to act in an overtly oppresive fashion in order to do so. Of course, the system with which we begin has to be spiritually mature and diverse enough to enable sublimation in the first place if it is going to survive (what cannot be said of material communism, for example). Yet I feel confident that the Vedas provide just that.

The link in the causal chain you mention can be broken at the stage where unanimity is said to lead to stagnation. Besides, unanimity is required if people are to work towards a common goal - which is, itself, a dynamic undertaking.
_________________
Namaste,

Shishya
ॐ

ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads

Shyena · Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:34 am Post subject:

Shishya · Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject:

Namaste PD,

Shyena · Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: WHAT AN OFFTOPIC SWING

Shishya · Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject:

Namaste PD,

Shyena · Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: SPLIT PLEASE!!!

Deepan Abisuriya · Junior Member Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 66

Namaste bhaio,

I was busy at my work place and could not join u in ur discussion. Sorry for this.

Regarding Jesus resurection, there has not been any argument against his physical raising from the dead at the time of Mohammad. Infact there are stories of Jesus Christ meeting Mohammad. And Jesus is predicted or the massiaha is predicted that he should resurect in the Torah.

There were so many in the history of Jews who claimed to be massiah, but all were put to death. It was only this Jesus of the 1 century who has resurected. In fact all other massiahas never taught ahimsa, but were zeolots, who had good support from the jewish authorities.

Jesus did'nt have the suppot of the jews, nor the Romans. And the early christianity is very much similar to vedic dharma. Vegetarianism was insisted, sacrificial ceremonies were shunned, unviversality of God was taught, no popery (insistance that Pope is a representative of God),conversion (or let me say cleansing from the pagan practices) were very easy, because Jesus Christ was a fact and not a history as we see him after 2000 years.

But all change after the catholic supremacy (dark ages). At this time, they changed lot of idiologies of Jesus, and in 600 AD, Quran was given to the Arabians, who were polithiests and persicutors and non-acceptors of the monotheistic view of the jews and christians.

Thus, I feel, God raised a prophet among the Arabians, for the arabians, to teach them the mesage of love.
The Bible (book of revelation 9 chapter, written about 97 AD) predicted the coming of the new religion. It predicts Quran to be a sun and then a darkness of misinterpretation covering it. After this darknes overshadows warriors like "scorpions" come out of the "abis" to conquer the world (mughals). Thus, you can plainly see the actions of mughals were contrary to the Quran's thought of jihad. In a jihad a jihadi, is to fight against the oppresor to free the oppressed, and not be the opressor himself. No lady should be raped.

Speaking about christianity, Bible (book of revelation chapters 2,3 4), predicts it to be a horse but changing colour. At present it is the "black horse". Why black?, it is because of the misinterpretation of the scriptures, which in contrast to the first horse -"white horse"(- right interpretation), even in India by St. Thomas. The culture of Isaai dharma was as hindus, vedas and Bible both were believed, holy manthras and reading of the Bible was insisted, Gaythri manthra was the main manthra to be recited, Jesus Christ was considered the massiah, not the almighty God. God was worshiped in the name of Jesus.

But all changed when Portugies invaded India, bringing the Roman catholic culture of Pope and idol worship. They even changed the Bible. Thanks to the apostolic and protestant christianity which preseved the sacred scriptures. But even protestants misinterpret the Bible due to a 1500 year of dark ages (misinterpretation of the Bible).

Hence as all religions have got corrupted due to missinterpretation, so is Islam and christianity, and the view about Jesus among the followers.

But Quran and the Bible remains the light leading us to the vedic dharma.

Speaking about view about 7 heavens and hell and so on, I believe they are symbolic in nature. A careful study would surely reveal scientific facts or symbolism. Every scripture has its symbolism, let us decode them later, to bring them from the misinterpreters to the right interpretation. I think hindus can do this best. I am upto this now. But as you know, there is only 24 hours in a day.

With regard to Jeus death and resurection the Bible and Quran can be explained in unison. Misinterpretation by both religions has caused problems.

Speaking about the Jesus permitting the devils to enter the swine, I shall surely let you know later (lack of time sorry friends).

Namaste.
Deepan

Prabhat · Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject:

Namaste Deepan,

this i understeand, keep on the good work.
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Namaste,
Prabhat

Shyena · Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject:

Shishya · Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject:

Namaste Deepan,

I think I understand your position and I can respect your views. Yet there remains one point which I simply cannot grasp:

Prabhat · Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:48 pm Post subject:

Shyena · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject:

Actually we can touch the idea - smrti like a manu smrti....
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Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam meditate

Namaste

Shishya · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject:

Namaste PD,

Shyena · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject:

Ah, but they dont have the vedas do they? I read in a harekrsna site that not every part of the world believed in vedas while nearing the end of treta yuga, thus those who forgot the vedas and became barbarians[cavemen?] were called mlechcha. They tried to fight against bheema who felt appalled by them. The reason I'm speaking of this is because for bible to say 'go back to the vedas' - is certainly a difficult thing for those who dont know what it means..
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Krinvanto Vishwam Aryam meditate

Namaste

Shishya · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject:

Namaste PD,

But, that's the point, isn't it? These are all cultures that separated themselves from or revolted against Vedic Aryan Civilization over the course of time. I don't doubt that they later produced good and noble individuals in their own right, but they no longer carried the torch of Vedic Wisdom. Therefore, my question remains: Why should we spend an undue amount of time dealing with their scriptures? If, as Deepan has been saying, we should see in Jesus a man that was trying to lead his people back to Vaidik Dharm, then he should have been preaching the Vedas. Not something similar to or reminiscient of the Vedas, but the Vedas themselves.

I'm not saying that the teachings of Jesus have no value whatsoever. What I'm saying is that - even if we interpret them in the best way possible - they can only serve one purpose: to lead us back to the Vedas. As soon as a person realizes this, he or she can dispose of the Bible entirely as a guide to life, for the Vedas contain everything possibly good in the Bible and much, much more. If a person thinks that Jesus was teaching Vaidik Dharm - and if he wasn't teaching Vaidik Dharm, then we needn't spend any time considering his teachings anyways - then the next logical step is to seek out the Vedas themselves.
_________________
Namaste,

Shishya
ॐ

ॐ सह नावतु । सह तौ भुनक्तु । सह वीर्यं करवावहै । तेजस्वि नावधीतमस्तु मा विद्विषावहै ॥
"Together may we be protected. Together may we be profited. Together may we do a hero's work. May we learn intelligently. May we never hate one another."
-Brihadaranyaka & Taittiriya Upanishads