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Sunita
Arya Ladies Forum Moderator
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 567
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 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: Re: at what age |
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| Devotee wrote: | well, isn't that what started all the hate reactions? I told you i was already 'preparing' my daughter of six. What do i mean by that?
Already at this age, as you know, children speak of all kinds of things and start forming ideas about how THEIR lives will be in the future. If at this age you only tell them "you will be in school" then you are limiting their options.
If my daughter sees a boy of 2 and says "he's so adorable" i tell her she'll have to wait another 7 years or so before she's able to have a baby of her own. This is of course completely different to a girl of six [speaking of 7 years in the future] than saying "You'll likely have your first child 26 years in the future" (as is the Dutch average nowadays). Or even worse, ignoring her obvious interest, thereby implying it can never be an issue. If you believe parenting constitutes keeping the truth from your children, of course, we don't see eye to eye.
Your ideas of at what age women might have children stem from your culture and what you see around you. Because you never see it in this culture you think it abnormal, However, were you to live in certain areas of the world you would simply think it common because you see it everywhere around you. All i'm saying is that you are limiting the scope of life for yourself and your daughters when you base what you tell them on what you see around you.
Right now the mother is feeding my daughter the cultural bs and i have to counter this. Otherwise she'll grow up to be one of these 'modern' Western girls who think of frivilous things when they should be thinking of responsibility. The way i see it having a child is what brings the concept of responsibility home to a woman. And at age 14 they may be young women but they are women. But a male at age 14 i would call a boy and not a young man. This is because of how the brains develop in humans. If you have no real idea about what i'm talkling about i refer to the articles i wrote.
How we deal with our women is not good for them. It's unnatural, self-centered, and doesn't make them happy. And frankly, it makes them difficult because they too become self-centered following our example. It is a strange thing to say a young woman of 14 isn't mature enough. When will she be? At 18? Why? God [or whatever you call it] made it possible for women to have children at age 12, 13, 14. Who are you to decide He was wrong and that women are NOT ready to have children then? Nowadays women have children at age 32. They're READY at age 32?! That's insane.
Admittedly, in our culture we treat our daughters like children and they are not ready at 14. That, however. lies with US as fathers and what we make of their lives as long as they are our responsibility.
Girls of 14 now actually say themselves that they're too young to become mothers. Of course they do! Because they weren't prepared for the whole concept. Which is their parents' fault.
I think a young woman with the care of an infant gets the message sent home that girls who are out fooling around, going to discos, doing drugs, smoking, and generally being [EDITED FOR VIOLATION OF FORUM POLICIES] haven't gotten. And that she'll be happier for it, now and for later. So you should've been speaking to her of her future possiblities in that regard as soon as she broached such subjects. Even a little girl knows she won't always be playing with dolls but what will she be doing? She gets such ideas from you. If you leave it to the culture she will simply follow the culture's lead and become a druggy. |
namaste devotee,
[EDITED FOR VIOLATION OF FORUM POLICIES]
bye
_________________
Namaste!
(1) If you can imagine it, you can achieve it; if you can dream it, you can become it. William Arthur Ward
(2) The self is not something ready-made, but something in continuous formation through choice of action.John Dewey:
(3) Andre Gide: Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it. |
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Prabhat
Platinum Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 1171
Location: Holland, The Hague
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:20 am Post subject: |
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Namaste Sunita,
can you say why?this is a bit short isnt it. an explanation would be better.
did you read the article on the blog?
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Namaste,
Prabhat |
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Devotee
Newbie
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 8
Location: The Hague, Holland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: when does a girl/woman enjoy life |
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| Prabhat wrote: | | so when dos a girl enjoy life. normale at 14, 15 etc youngster enjoy life. and what abouth the education of girls, that is important for them to grow and learn abouth life. if they marry very young, they depent on their husband. and if he is not that smart or educated. so is that not also the blind leading the blind. |
again, this SUPPOSED age when girls 'enjoy life' is cultural bs.
My daughter is enjoying life at age 6, she'll be enjoying life as a teenager, i hope, in her 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, etc.
If by "enjoying life" you mean running around inviting every loose [EDITED FOR MATURE LANGUAGE] to stick it to her, teasing, taunting, and [EDITED FOR MATURE LANGUAGE] at discos, bars, and on playgrounds, well, frankly, it is my plan that my daughter 'miss out' on that because it's my considered opinion that such activities do NOT constitute bringing enjoyment. Instead they are the feeble attempts Westerners [commonly, so i don't really know where your question is coming from] undertake to find meaning in their lives and fill the emotional emptiness that stems from suppression and having no sense of purpose.
About the blind leading the blind. Someone with years of experience as an adult isn't blind like a boy. Whether he is smart or stupd he is much better off than the 'dumb' boy he was. Again something you could've thought of yourself...
The simple fact of the matter is the question supposes a very self-centered male chauvenist attitude as i explained in my article The 20-year Female Window of Opportunity. You're not helping your daughters by projecting male suppositions on their situation. A girl [/woman] is not a boy.
And contrary to young men who would rather be out all day messing around women find happiness in caring for children. Young men, let alone boys, have no interest in such things.
Your Western supposition is in fact very mean and callous. WHEN is a woman to become mother according to the Western (lack of) reasoning? Like i explain in my article you are cutting down her female options and replacing them with male options. This is not intelligent, this is not empathic, nor logical, reasonable, or humane. It is 'modern' culture. Is this your new god? Is that the ruling axiom here, if it doesn't suit modern culture it is evil and should be challenged?
Is this a forum based on religion? It sounds like you are arguing godlessness and your opinion reflects a lack of responsibility for your thoughts and opinions that you not only hand down to your children but you actually contest me handing down values that are well considered and intelligent. If this is the level of your religious practice, as the Guru Jesus Christ once put it, then what are you better than those you call hypocrites?
Does your religion not teach responsibility for action, word, and thought? Surely, if it does, this doesn't mean checking to see if your thoughts fit the times you happen to be living in. The truth will set you free, not clinging to your upbringen/culture/times. Your religion should be helping you find truth, not challenging logic, reason, and fact. Higher truths will not counter 'lower' truths found via logic, reason, and facts. And if you snub the lower truths, do you think God [or whatever you call it] will be able to hand you the higher ones? I can't do your thinking for you but you are asking questions here your mind can understand without me explaining them anyway. If you don't starting thinking properly instead of relying on preference, presumption, and prejudice no guru can help you. Before you ask a question you should consider if the question itself is based on intelligent consideration.
You should be asking yourself Why do you come here at all? If you do not embrace intelligent information when it comes along but indeed challenge it, where is the profit? Violence is not the proper response to intelligence.
Last edited by Devotee on Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Devotee
Newbie
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 8
Location: The Hague, Holland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: violent response |
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| Sunita wrote: | you need serious teraphy. u r very confident of yourself to say such things. u been brain washed to a point where u think u know it all.
i pity your wife and kids. god only knows what u put them through.
i thought u have roots in afghanistan. i hope social services take your daughter away and find her freedom. |
Don't worry about it, Prabhat,
this was to be expected.
As Alice Miller explains how people refuse to think Kubler-Ross explains which routes they take instead of thought. These are the 5 Stages of Grief:
- Agression
- Denial
- Bargaining
- Depression
- Acceptance.
Therefore anyone showing violence to knowledge and reasoning that doesn't suit them tries all kinds of agression first. As you saw by previous replies manipulation has already been tried, one of the most popular forms of violence, especially towards those weaker than oneself [i.e. the attacker's own children will likely suffer similar fates all the time].
Denial in the form of "I don't agree" [without arguments why] also came by already.
The bargaining i quickly put an end to here by pointing it out and explaining what was happening.
The next step would either be to go into depression (which could lead to acceptance) or to up the agression and try all over again.
Contrary to the reply above, research has shown (and the violent reply above verifies) that the disease, if any, is the authoritarian trauma that dams the flow of thought, giving the mind no resort but violence and insanity. The truth then becomes your enemy. The same goes for logic, reason, and facts that don't suit your frame of mind/ideas/culture. The madness about Afganistan testifies to the insanity part.
You see how people who profess civilization can resort to extreme violence in the wink of an eye. I wonder if Sunita has shown this side of herself on the forum before, but even if it never happened before i wouldn't be surprised. It is why i haven't been on such forums in years. This is always the way it goes and in the end I'm actually the one blamed because before i opened my mouth things were peaceful. The truth is they were never really peaceful but that the violence was subtle and hidden. But i come around and clarify what's happening.
Don't think too harshly about Sunita, though. She's living out the drama of her childhood and must've been sorely (psychologically) abused as a child. This is why Kubler-Ross's 5 Stages of Grief apply: violence is really someone's dealing with the grief they haven't yet expressed in relation to the violence suffered as a child.
Besides this, as i explain in The Female Moral Vacuum women are right side of the brain oriented and that colors their ability to hold onto reason and principle above feelings. That includes the principle of staying civil in debate and not resorting to such violence.
As you judge so shall you be judged by the eternal powers that be. When you die and reincarnate and the shit hits the fan, you won't be able to say you weren't warned...
Back to the topic, (before straying from the topic is used as an argument to kick me off here by yet another moderator) i have made my arguments about the matter, clearly, peacefully, and in detail. My considerations stem from an appreciation of truth and from love for my daughter over love of my own personal preferences, prejudice, and presumptions. My love has carried me beyond commonly accepted thoughts about the matter to thoughts that can be defended by reason, logic, and fact. No wonder i'm sure about myself and don't have to resort to violence.
I can assure you my dear lovely daughter, as well, doesn't have to suffer violence from me, in any form, and i am looking out for her interests by not leaving her fate up to the preference, presumptions, and prejudices of an immoral and insane culture. For insanity that is condoned, expected, and even demanded is still just that: insanity.
Last edited by Devotee on Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Devotee
Newbie
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 8
Location: The Hague, Holland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: Evolved Democracy |
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dear members,
i have recently been viciously attacked on this forum by a Moderator.
It is because of such behavior i have long ago decided there need to be rules to debate or otherwise such it all ends in a shouting match and the principle of MIGHT = RIGHT wins over, i.e. whoever has the most power decides who gets to stay and debate further. This, of course, kills all debate that doesn't suit the powers that be and is a de facto consensus by them.
I've written about a solution to this dilemma on my blog, an artical about what i call Evolved Democracy.
Query: how does this forum treat such behavior? I had hoped this one might be civilized. Does this place now show it's true nature or is there more to it? Is such behavior acceptable here? Because in that case, i'm outta here.
_________________
Reporter to Gandhi: "What do you think of Western Civlilzation?"
Gandhi: "I think it would be a good idea". |
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Prabhat
Platinum Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 1171
Location: Holland, The Hague
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: Re: when does a girl/woman enjoy life |
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| Devotee wrote: | | Prabhat wrote: | | so when dos a girl enjoy life. normale at 14, 15 etc youngster enjoy life. and what abouth the education of girls, that is important for them to grow and learn abouth life. if they marry very young, they depent on their husband. and if he is not that smart or educated. so is that not also the blind leading the blind. |
again, this SUPPOSED age when girls 'enjoy life' is cultural bs.
My daughter is enjoying life at age 6, she'll be enjoying life as a teenager, i hope, in her 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, etc.
If by "enjoying life" you mean running around inviting every loose [EDITED FOR VIOLATION OF FORUM POLICIES] to stick it to her, teasing, taunting, and [EDITED FOR VIOLATION OF FORUM POLICIES] at discos, bars, and on playgrounds, well, frankly, it is my plan that my daughter 'miss out' on that because it's my considered opinion that such activities do NOT constitute bringing enjoyment. Instead they are the feeble attempts Westerners [commonly, so i don't really know where your question is coming from] undertake to find meaning in their lives and fill the emotional emptiness that stems from suppression and having no sense of purpose.
About the blind leading the blind. Someone with years of experience as an adult isn't blind like a boy. Whether he is smart or stupd he is much better off than the 'dumb' boy he was. Again something you could've thought of yourself...
The simple fact of the matter is the question supposes a very self-centered male chauvenist attitude as i explained in my article The 20-year Female Window of Opportunity. You're not helping your daughters by projecting male suppositions on their situation. A girl [/woman] is not a boy.
And contrary to young men who would rather be out all day messing around women find happiness in caring for children. Young men, let alone boys, have no interest in such things.
Your Western supposition is in fact very mean and callous. WHEN is a woman to become mother according to the Western (lack of) reasoning? Like i explain in my article you are cutting down her female options and replacing them with male options. This is not intelligent, this is not empathic, nor logical, reasonable, or humane. It is 'modern' culture. Is this your new god? Is that the ruling axiom here, if it doesn't suit modern culture it is evil and should be challenged?
Is this a forum based on religion? It sounds like you are arguing godlessness and your opinion reflects a lack of responsibility for your thoughts and opinions that you not only hand down to your children but you actually contest me handing down values that are well considered and intelligent. If this is the level of your religious practice, as the Guru Jesus Christ once put it, then what are you better than those you call hypocrites?
Does your religion not teach responsibility for action, word, and thought? Surely, if it does, this doesn't mean checking to see if your thoughts fit the times you happen to be living in. The truth will set you free, not clinging to your upbringen/culture/times. Your religion should be helping you find truth, not challenging logic, reason, and fact. Higher truths will not counter 'lower' truths found via logic, reason, and facts. And if you snub the lower truths, do you think God [or whatever you call it] will be able to hand you the higher ones? I can't do your thinking for you but you are asking questions here your mind can understand without me explaining them anyway. If you don't starting thinking properly instead of relying on preference, presumption, and prejudice no guru can help you. Before you ask a question you should consider if the question itself is based on intelligent consideration.
You should be asking yourself Why do you come here at all? If you do not embrace intelligent information when it comes along but indeed challenge it, where is the profit? Violence is not the proper response to intelligence. |
Namaste D,
well i dont think al girls are like you have discribe here.
there are girls who like to enjoy there live by education, traveling and meeting other people's over the world.
and one other thing this forum is based on religion. but sometimes emotion get in the way. And this is an personal view. And our religion tell us how do deal with children, So dont wory abouth that. maby you can read the Satyart Prakash of Swami Dyanand. you can find it here on one of the topics. i know you like to read 
and if you have problems with a Mod, than please PM another Mod and explain that you are having some problems. And because you think diffenerend it makes nice to discuss abouth things, every ones opinion is welcome. So dont leave this forum  please read forum polici http://aryasamaj.forumwise.com/aryasamaj-thread107.html
_________________
Namaste,
Prabhat |
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Prabhat
Platinum Member
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Posts: 1171
Location: Holland, The Hague
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Devotee
Newbie
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 8
Location: The Hague, Holland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: not good enough |
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i'm sorry, M.,
but's that's really not good enough and it shouldn't be for anyone interested in civilized debate. Because this is the way it always goes when you really want to dig into something. And dismissing violence as just "someone's personal view" is making little of a very debilitating thing.
btw, making little of violence is not healthy and also stems from the authoritarian trauma. You would do well to consider how you're able to do such a thing. Because when we don't address violence when it happens it never goes away and just keeps on growing. And you stay clear of the violence yourself by not digging into any matter too deeply but that only means you're safe but your thoughts will always remain shallow. Because you obviously must take this attitude with you wherever you go. When will your mind ever be open to truths that shock your feelings into growing?
If this forum (like all forums i've ever been to) accepts such behavior, not only do i feel unwelcome there but there's no hope of finding any really interesting stuff on the forum anyway because it would obviously be culled by such narrow-minded individuals such as the one that attacked me.
Thanks for reminding me why i steered clear of such places years ago.
_________________
Reporter to Gandhi: "What do you think of Western Civlilzation?"
Gandhi: "I think it would be a good idea". |
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Ajitwsapl
Sophomore Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 36
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Namaste Devotee
I have seen in your replies, a sense of commitment, love, care and concern for fellow human beings. It shows your greatness and generosity.
For any debate, we cannot restrict our arguments within our modern (or scientific way). I would always add and check whether our conclusions are as per the fundamental properties and attributes of Atma, Paramatma, and laws of Creation. This is particularly because of the following reasons:
1. The science accepts the existence of material and energy. It does not accept existence of innumerable Atmas (Souls) and Paramatma(God). I do believe and accept the fundamental laws of science proved and accepted by scientific investigations, along with the existence of Atmas and Paramatma.
2. With out the acceptance the philosophical existence of Atma and Paramatma, we can not have any satisfying answers for questions like (a) Why one is healthy/ wealthy/ blessed, and another is without these! (b) What is the difference between human beings and other living beings (c) Why we are having freedom for action (d) When we have freedom, we have a responsibility to use it wisely/ logically, etc.
3. Therefor I prefer to look into what I understand from the Vedic literature and writings of Maharshi Dayananda Saraswathi and his followers.
Now to your point of discussion, I would like to add my view points. WHETHER GIRL OF 14/16 IS READY FOR MARRIAGE?
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Ajitwsapl
Sophomore Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 36
Location: Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Marriage is a highly respected Sanskar, however it is not at all an essential sanskar. The Vedic system, talks about four Ashramas 1.Brahmacharya, 2.Gruhastha, 3.Vanaprastha, and 4.Sanyasa. It is for normal human beings. For one who is qualified and studied the Vedas, if he/she desires, there is a direct path from Brahmacharya to Sanyasa.
Just considering, whether a girl is ready for conceiving a child, is not the only criterion for age of marriage. How ever it is an essential criteria. Women is not only the mother, but she is also the first teacher for the child. I have read that the emotional stability/instability of the mother during pregnancy will affect the growth of different faculties of the child inside the womb. Therefore naturally for best progeny, the mother shall be highly matured and knowledgeable. Therefore she should have completed the minimum requirements of studies.
One more thing I want to add is that, human birth is the Karma Yoni, both for men and women. All human beings shall be given freedom for thoughts and actions. The women also have the right to enter into Sanyasa, if she desires so. The parents and society have the duty to provide her education, and to empower her to take a decision on what type of life she would like to live. The parents duty ends with the education. Then it is the girls duty and responsibility to select the pathway of life. I meant, (a) the path way of simply being a mother, or (b) being a good mother along with desire & understanding in production and distribution of facilities and amenities of life, or (c) being a mother along with leadership in communities for justice and protection of values, or (d) being a mother along with true love for all with commitment to study, research and teach fundamental laws of life.
Let me explain more. A girl may adore a boy or may show inclination to take care of babies. If at this point one decides that the girl is ready for marriage or being a mother is INJUSTICE. It might be her inner instincts or desire. However she should be given education to know what are the possibilities for her in her life. It may even turn out that, she may even become a very good pediatrician or teacher itself. Or she may find serving the society in leadership role may give better joy and satisfaction to her. Etc.
The answer to your question is that, what is the appropriate age, at which a girl can take a conscious decision of her own, after getting a fairly good idea of (a) what life is and (b) what are the different opportunities for her.
My personal understanding says, the absolute minimum age may be 18 for girls. I still do not know why, every one considers, a man getting maturity later than a woman.
The last, but not the least. The biggest miracle is that, we always think, we will live for ever. Today nobody thinks about what happens after life(death), and why we are born. The Veda says the greatest scientist, the greatest leader, the greatest industrialist, the greatest entertainer, the have, the have not, the previledged and the under previledged, etc. are fundamentally the SAME/SIMILAR ATMAS WITH SAME CAPABILITIES. Only the bodies are the different, because of the past karmas. The one who has given us the body is the embodiment of total justice, total love and truly impartial. Any serious thoughts in these directions will totally revolutionize our childhood desires and matured desires.
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Devo
General Discussion Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 636
Location: Canada.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Namaste,
The vision of the Arya Samaj Forum is one of respect, tolerance, and diversity. In order to maintain a welcoming environment for discussion and participation, the forum's administration provided a set of policies for users, including moderators.
The policies and guidelines serves the purpose of allowing each member to share his/her opinion w/out any form of discrimination, providing that they are in accordance with these policies and the Arya Samaj Ki Das Niyam - Ten Principles of the Arya Samaj.
In a friendly, open, and respectable atmosphere suited for constructive discussions, each member must play a part in upkeeping these rules and guidelines (If, however, a user does not agree with these policies, s/he may contact the forum's administrator and discontinue his/her participation until the problem is resolved).
If you have not yet read the forum's policies and guidelines, please do so by clicking here.
This discussion, based on the personal views of users, has not only violated one or more of this forum's policies for users, but the principles set forth by Rishi Dayanand, in the principles of the Arya Samaj.
As a moderator of this forum, I condemn any form of personal attacks or discrimination in any way, shape or form. I take full responsibility for the actions of the forum's moderators in the absence of our Administrator, and I sincerely apologise for the actions of our moderator, whom should be setting an example.
I feel that this discussion has been over-discussed, and hence I bring it to a close. Please be advised that some of your responses will be edited for obscene language and content.
If you've any questions and/or comments, please feel free to contact me via private messaging.
Namaste,
Devo. |
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